tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post8143929094344595748..comments2022-03-03T19:07:58.725-08:00Comments on Etteilla's Trumps as Interpreted by him and his followers: pictures, translations, commentary: An Etteilla TimelineMichael S Howardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-61565627079894758752020-02-12T05:12:20.376-08:002020-02-12T05:12:20.376-08:00I looked at the link you gave. I assume you could ...I looked at the link you gave. I assume you could open her attachments, showing the booklet page for #8 Repos, the Spanish card (which is from 1903 or 1906, I forget which), and something else, either an actual "1870" card or her reconstruction of what it would have been. She seems to say both things. But if it is her coloring of a "slightly altered" image, it is a very good job. If it is a real card, then it is certainly the first version. I remain puzzled by what we're seeing.<br /><br />She seems to refer to the marbled back the deck you linked to in this passage: "The tax stamp, according to Wolfgang Kunst/Kunze, might have been applied to merchandise printed and stored by Lismon until or before the purchase of Lismon merchandise from Grimaud. The German seller had an 1890 Lismon with box and book and I believe the second soldier without beard is 1890. The back has a kind of wavy or squiggly lines...I think even the blurry photos might show the difference..." I didn't see any blurry photos. Here she seems to say that the wavy lines back is from 1890! But I would guess that a deck with Eve reaching for the apple is earlier than one where she isn't, because the Nuremburg Chronicle shows her reaching for the apple, and that's the basis for the card: https://www.medievalists.net/2015/01/beautiful-images-nuremberg-chronicle/.<br /><br />It seems to me that if the marbled deck is a first edition, the owner should be able to provide pictures of at least card 8 and the 2 of Swords. Apparently a tax stamp wouldn't prove that it was post-1890, if it was held in storage and only offered for sale after 1890; but the lack of a tax stamp would certainly say something. If card 8 looks like the book illustration, i.e. with Eve reaching for the apple, that would say something, too. If you want me to try to contact others, such as Cerulean (although my information for her is 7 years old), please join Tarot History Forum and send me a Private Message. Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-32550513731422055182020-02-11T08:03:49.053-08:002020-02-11T08:03:49.053-08:00Cerulean remark, as you asked. Here it is, with li...Cerulean remark, as you asked. Here it is, with link. https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=164546. And here's what it says "‘Editions Delarue of Paris had beautiful art prints, and the listing of art production and chromolithography and Hangard - Mave (sp) and G. Regamey has been helpful. Kaplan's auction of 2006 lists a Grand Jeu del'Oracle des Dames with different card images, but none are pictured. Perhaps this deck is similar to the variation in my Editions Delarue Cartomancie book which reflects the 19th century Lismon and Editions Delarue Ace of Wands as Chute or Fall as the Upright or Droit meaning and Naissance or Birth as the Reverse meaning for one example. And the Repose Eve of Editions Delarue with her leafy skirt and no spirals is also preserved. The Spanish language version is El de Las Arte Echar Cartas or the Art of Drawing Cards. I was able to place the circa 1865 book text, line drawing next to the Spanish language deck with the printed subtitles and lastly, a reproduction of the 1870 cards. I copied, colored and slightly altered the image of Eve of the Repos card. The last card is not in any of the reproduction decks." A link to the images followsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875650652092864874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-6247073845804501282020-02-11T07:56:50.950-08:002020-02-11T07:56:50.950-08:00Hi there, thank you so much for you kind reply. My...Hi there, thank you so much for you kind reply. My example (the deck I physically own) has a tax stamp on the 2 of swords, yes, so it's on or after 1890. Mine didn't come with a booklet. The cards themselves say: Mortalite on card 17, card Faux Dévot on 18, and Pretre on card 10. so not revised for censors. <br /><br />As for the marble-backed version, it is this one sold by Magnin-Wedry, who write in the description that they are sure it the first edition. I am trying to have a close look at the box, which appears to have a name at bottom centre. https://www.mw-encheres.com/lot/89890/8593403Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875650652092864874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-64030895345000806552020-02-10T18:59:23.038-08:002020-02-10T18:59:23.038-08:00Another thought: If there is a tax stamp, it will ...Another thought: If there is a tax stamp, it will be on the 2 of Swords. One clue to the date might be the LWB. The LeMarchand booklet I have scans of has black and white pictures of the cards (without keywords) in the LWB and says on the page facing the title page "imprime chez Bonaventure et Ducessois, 55, Quai des Augustins." <br /><br />I just noticed that "Koy Deli" posted translated keywords from LeMarchand, but my copy has no keywords. So I would be very interested to know if yours, either in the booklet or the eck, has "Fin" for the upright instead of "Mortalite" on card 17, "Fausseté" instead of "Faux Dévot" on 18 reversed, and "Sage" instead of "Pretre" on 10 reversed.Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-12522444862710574622020-02-10T14:39:27.582-08:002020-02-10T14:39:27.582-08:00These are good questions, Christina. I can't a...These are good questions, Christina. I can't answer the first question without quite a bit more research. If you haven't already looked, you might be able to find copies with those backs online at the websites of Gallica, the British Museum, the Metropolitan, the Wellcome Library, etc. and see what they say. As for the second, if I knew the picture that Cerulean posted I might be able to answer. Can you provide a link to that post? Otherwise, I suggest you join Tarot History Forum and ask your questions there (in the "Exhibition Gallery"). You can post pictures by linking to an image file online (there should be a way to upload them directly, but if so I don't know it); or if that's inconvenient, linking to some url address that has it. Unfortunately most of the people who know these decks were at Aeclectic Tarot Forum, and it's gone. Sumada and Kenji would be good people to ask, if you can find them.Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-73180035902141413322020-02-10T07:19:18.545-08:002020-02-10T07:19:18.545-08:00Sorry my name did not appear - this is Christina f...Sorry my name did not appear - this is Christina from Treadwell's. I shyould add that the example I have is an early one, pre 1890 as there's no tax stamp.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875650652092864874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-89041792918553226432020-02-10T07:17:10.501-08:002020-02-10T07:17:10.501-08:00I've got a Grand Jeu des Dames with the pink b...I've got a Grand Jeu des Dames with the pink back and I've done a bit of research, creating loads of questions. <br />1. I see two versions with the same ?1870 artwork. Mine has a pink square pattern, but I've seen a photo of the same artwork with a marbled back. Do any of you know which is earlier? <br />2. Did the deck issued 1856 with Lemarchand's booklet have woodcuts which matched the illustrations in her booklet? 'Cerulean' in Tarotforums posted a picture a card from an early deck with pictures which matched the booklet, but Cerulean was not clear if this was a first edition from 1856 (seemed to say it was a Spanish deck?). Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14875650652092864874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-86106454677007503412015-12-12T19:48:18.829-08:002015-12-12T19:48:18.829-08:00His 'passage du Caire' office is advertise...His 'passage du Caire' office is advertised as for sale in the December 1823 edition.<br />Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-2369838632370325352015-12-12T19:43:10.734-08:002015-12-12T19:43:10.734-08:00That is in the 24th December, 1931 issue of the Bi...That is in the 24th December, 1931 issue of the Bibliography de France.Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-53829724097950175842015-12-12T19:41:26.961-08:002015-12-12T19:41:26.961-08:00Re: Petieux -- in the Bibliographie de France he a...Re: Petieux -- in the Bibliographie de France he appears to have another address to the above:<br /><br /> "chez Peytieux, galerie Delorme, n.11 et 13." <br /><br />Probably coincidence? (I am thinking of the Type II Etteilla by 'Delorme'.)<br /><br />Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-72823660519074485012015-12-12T19:01:03.645-08:002015-12-12T19:01:03.645-08:00Wicked Pack's first notice of Gueffier jeune i...Wicked Pack's first notice of Gueffier jeune is 1820, a reprint of Zodiac Mysterieuse with advertisements of other works, including the 78 cards, engraved and carefully colored, for fr. 6.50. This is on pp. 113-114 of Wicked Pack. They also say, p. 274 note 64, that the book was reissued "some years later" but without further details, other than that the reprint is "126 pp.; 12 mo." <br /><br />P. 114 mentions Peytieux as "newly established" in 1827, selling the deck with other works for fr. 36 and by itself for fr. 6.0. That is what you have for 1817! The "veuve Gueffier" is mentioned on p. 145 as selling a "Petit Oracle des Dames" in 1807, with an earlier edition by Mme. Finet, but with only 36 cards. On p. 146 we learn that the "classic version" had 42 cards; its designs were borrowed in part from a fortune-telling pack of 1790 and in part from Etteilla's tarot pack. The footnotes are to Depaulis, Les Cartes de la Revoltuion 1984 no. 132 and Mademoiselle Lenormand, 1989 no. 99.Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-706655653267572372015-12-12T04:37:39.672-08:002015-12-12T04:37:39.672-08:00c.1802 or earlier,Le Petit Oracles des Dames, orig...c.1802 or earlier,Le Petit Oracles des Dames, originally by Gueffier, with later editions by the widow Gueffier, the rights of which are later (c. February 1823) sold on to M. Peytieux, libraire, passage du Caire, n.121, à Paris, by Mr. Gueffier the younger (presumably their son).<br /><br />c.1806 or earlier, a Petit Etteilla, by the Widow Gueffier with later editions by Gueffier Jeune.<br /><br />1817, February, Gueffier jeune acquires the the remaining few copies of the Book of Thoth[/i], published by Etteilla:<br /><br />Du Dictionnaire synonymique du livre de Thot<br />Du Cours pratique da livre de Thot<br />Grand Jeu, consisting of 78 cards, with hieroglyphic figures. <br />price 36-0 (Or the game of cards sold separately, price 9-0)<br /><br />To be found from the same address : <br /><br />le Petit Oracle des Dames composed of 42 cards, enclosed in a case with instructions. price 3-0<br />Le Petit Eteilla, composed of 33 cards, enclosed in a case with instructions, and a book of dreams for the lottery. 3-0<br />L ‘Introduction à la fortune, ou l’Art de corriger ses défauts à la loterie; avec les Reves, etc. 4-0<br /><br />1823 M. Peytieux, libraire, passage du Caire, n.121, à Paris, purchases the rights and remaining stock of Le Petit Oracle des Dames from Mr. Gueffier the younger.<br /><br />1826 & 1827, Gueffier jeune is still listed as publisher and seller of the Grand Etteilla, consisting of several volumes and deck for 36fr, or 9fr for the cards alone. Can't find any reference to him after that.Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-61203178624342706112015-12-12T01:45:45.392-08:002015-12-12T01:45:45.392-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-63877707593909786042015-12-12T01:22:34.187-08:002015-12-12T01:22:34.187-08:00In 'A Wicked Pack of Cards' that is.In 'A Wicked Pack of Cards' that is.Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-72136211720598402742015-12-12T01:17:05.518-08:002015-12-12T01:17:05.518-08:00I am not clear as to what the dates of the above w...I am not clear as to what the dates of the above were?<br /><br />I have lost my copy, but if memory serves me right Gueffier jeune is reported as making reprints of Etteilla in c.1820?<br />Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-77731351849950026972015-12-12T01:00:19.823-08:002015-12-12T01:00:19.823-08:00Re: 1807 Gueffier. There are listings for the Peti...Re: 1807 Gueffier. There are listings for the Petit Etteilla des Dames at least as early as 1802.<br /><br />Also, if this listing of Etteilla publications is correct, Gueffier has a much greater role to play in the timeline:<br /><br />__* Etteilla, ou manière de se récréer avec un jeu de cartes. Paris, Lesclapart, 1770 in- 12. -- Nouvelle édit. (sons le titre du Petit Ëtieilla) contenant 33 cartes dans un étui avec la manière de s’en servir, et le livre des rêves). Paris, (Gueffier jeune) in-18, 3 fr.<br /><br />Jeu (grand) de 78 cartes eu figures hiéroglyphiques. Paris, (Guffier jeune), 36 fr.<br />Ou peutse procurer le jeu de caries séparément, 9 fr.<br /><br />Zodiaque (le) mystérieux, ou les Oracles d’Etteilla. Paris, Gueffier jeune. ( Peytieux), 1772 in-8, 4 fr.<br /><br />source:<br />La France littéraire ou dictionnaire bibliographique des savants, historiens et gens de lettres de la France, ainsi que des littérateurs étrangers qui ont écrit en français, plus particulièrement pendant les XVIIIe et XIXe siècles: A - B, Volume 1 By Joseph M. Quérard, 1827<br /><br />Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-63364517944761823842015-12-10T06:28:07.613-08:002015-12-10T06:28:07.613-08:00Sorry for the confusion "kwaw" is my use...Sorry for the confusion "kwaw" is my username over @ AT.Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-50931889821034382732015-12-10T02:01:40.433-08:002015-12-10T02:01:40.433-08:00For the benefit of others in the future, that post...For the benefit of others in the future, that post is by "Kwaw" at http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=4533328&postcount=309. where many of the comments here, as well as those of others, may be found in the same thread, going back to p. 28, post 271 (now at 310).Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-48486648320899568752015-12-09T19:08:08.763-08:002015-12-09T19:08:08.763-08:00Note re: the BM Type I dated first half of 19th ce...Note re: the BM Type I dated first half of 19th century.<br /><br />As well as the deck being described as having an acquisition stamp 1860 (old BM Library stamp 12 April 1860) - which if correct must date it to at least 1860 or earlier - we also have Willshire's description of it (or one very much like it) in his 'A Descriptive Catalogue of Playing and Other Cards in the British Museum' which makes it (or its type) for certain pre-1876.<br /><br />(I have posted Willshire's description of the card on the thread over at AT.)<br />Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-30536111422496045192015-12-08T05:08:23.135-08:002015-12-08T05:08:23.135-08:00The BM also have a German Etteilla Type I which mi...The BM also have a German Etteilla Type I which might be of interest:<br />http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3157603&partId=1&searchText=Etteilla&page=1Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-10045703924531051232015-12-08T05:06:23.779-08:002015-12-08T05:06:23.779-08:00The BnF Grimaud, 1890, is very similar to this BM ...The BnF Grimaud, 1890, is very similar to this BM Grand Etteilla, which they date to c.1800-1850 (it has an 1860 acquisition stamp - so would appear to be 1860 or ealier). <br /><br />http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=1075285001&objectId=3261525&partId=1#more-viewsKöy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-59000566237676011172015-12-07T04:32:22.051-08:002015-12-07T04:32:22.051-08:00That should be Lequart et Mignon, & 1890, not ...That should be Lequart et Mignon, & 1890, not 1990.<br />Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-34686203224296414982015-12-07T04:22:46.381-08:002015-12-07T04:22:46.381-08:00Confusing that the only information we have of an ...Confusing that the only information we have of an earlier Type I (excepting Etteilla's own, and the German decks of 1793 & 1857) is from H. Pussey, not Lemarque & Mignot. I wonder where this information of L&M being the earlier manufacturers of the Grimaud comes from?Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-7991078183266254472015-12-07T04:15:34.451-08:002015-12-07T04:15:34.451-08:00According to a catalogue for the sale of the colle...According to a catalogue for the sale of the collection of Claude Guiard (expert consultant Depaulis), the legal rights to La Sybille des Salons was registered in Paris in May 1827, which were later picked up by other publishers, Gaudais (active 1875 to 1880), then Pussey (1880-1890)<br />and finally by Grimaud at the end of the nineteenth century. (The dating of the Pussey Salon des Dames to 1848 would then seem to be an error?)<br /><br />If Grimaud picked up the legal rights for this deck from Pussey, possibly he did so for other decks of the Pussey Catalogue too.<br /><br />Coredil over at AT posted information confirming that Grimaud took over the firms of H. Pussey, and of Lemarque & Mignot, in 1990. Quoting from an article in Ace de Trefle, 10/98:<br /><br />quote:<br />Between 1890-1891, the company Grimaud increased considerably her catalogue with several divinatory games thanks to the purchase of the companies Pussey then Lequart et Mignot. From the first (company), she borrows the Sybille des Salons, the Jeu de la main and the Grand jeu de Mlle Lenormand; and from the second (company), Le Destin Antique, the Grand and the Petit Etteilla, the Petit oracle des Dames and the Petit Cartomancien.<br />(Trans. Coredil)<br /><br />L&M are mentioned as the old makers of Le Grand Etteill too in their entry on their Grimaud Grand Etteill (type I0 1890:<br /><br />The BnF entry does mention Lequart et Mignot:<br /><br />[Jeu de tarot divinatoire dit "Grand Etteilla" ou "tarot égyptien"] : [jeu de cartes, estampe] Éditeur : Grimaud et Chartier (Paris) Éditeur : ancienne fabrique Lequart et Mignot (Paris) Date d'édition : 1890 Sujet : Jeux divinatoires Type : image fixe,estampe Langue : zxx Format : 1 jeu de 78 cartes : gravure à l'eau-forte coloriée au pochoir avec rehauts d'aquarelle ; 11,8 x 6,6 cm<br /><br />There is a small (16p) booklet about 'the damages caused to Lequart & Mignot by the expropriation of their factory' published in February 1890.<br /><br />And an announcement in The Bulletin de la papeterie, September 1890:<br /><br />RENSEGNEMENTS COMMERICAUX<br />Cessions de Fonds<br /><br />Lequart et Mignot (Societe) a Grimard et Chartier (Societe)fabrique de cartes a jouer et autres, rue Saint-Maur, 74.<br /><br />Business Information / Transfer of Funds<br />Lequart and Mignot (Society) to Grimard and Chartier (Society), maker of cards, games and others, rue Saint-Maur, 74.<br /><br /> Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-12596184552548135142015-12-04T18:47:04.854-08:002015-12-04T18:47:04.854-08:00Le Salon des Sybils was originally published by H....Le Salon des Sybils was originally published by H. Pussey in 1848, long before as you mention Grimaud even existed - but later editions, c.1890 to 1900, were published as by H. Pussey : Chartier, Grimaud et Boudin.Köy Delihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558583528750622655noreply@blogger.com