tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post1446378996530674562..comments2022-03-03T19:07:58.725-08:00Comments on Etteilla's Trumps as Interpreted by him and his followers: pictures, translations, commentary: cards 9-12 in the Etteilla traditionMichael S Howardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-24766192743233131852020-09-01T13:01:59.397-07:002020-09-01T13:01:59.397-07:00Thank YouThank Youaoieuiloveyouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08494791827693061052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-62813229675163319872019-02-01T19:56:41.997-08:002019-02-01T19:56:41.997-08:00The Etteilla I was done in 1788 for Etteilla. The ...The Etteilla I was done in 1788 for Etteilla. The Etteilla II was done in 1838 by Simon Blocquel in Lisle. The Etteilla III is from around 1870, I forget exactly when, and is based on images in the Nuremburg Chronicle of 1491. If you look for the Etteilla Timeline - well, the later one by that name, on Aeclectic Tarpt Forum, you will find a complete account of all the numerous decks that developed from Etteilla, up to around 1900. Another good source is the book "A Wicked Pack of Cards". Tarot History Forum has the latest information, however, about the 1788 images. Use its search function for Etteilla 1788. Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-20240270250122931482019-01-30T09:35:30.128-08:002019-01-30T09:35:30.128-08:00Thanks for your answer! I am studying the 'evo...Thanks for your answer! I am studying the 'evolution' of the tarot starting from the visconti-sforza, and am intrigued by the differences in the three etteilla decks. It's hard to find reliable information, so thank you again for your time and sharing your knowledge! Anne-Marie Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05099029331240484588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-92161293361749553352019-01-30T05:46:48.708-08:002019-01-30T05:46:48.708-08:00P.S. When I wrote this post, I had not yet had acc...P.S. When I wrote this post, I had not yet had access to Etteilla's own writings on his virtue cards in his Third Cahier. So be sure to see https://thirdcahier.blogspot.com/2012/10/introduction-and-part-i-of-translation.html<br />and https://thirdcahier.blogspot.com/2012/10/blank_6344.htmlMichael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-39686981256739922672019-01-30T05:28:08.298-08:002019-01-30T05:28:08.298-08:00Yes, I think you're right. The Etteilla Pruden...Yes, I think you're right. The Etteilla Prudence card, in all its versions, derives from the Hanged Man, in the sense that turning it upside down and considering the rope as a snake, you get a good image of Prudence: proceed with caution, because there are snakes in that grass. But in conception Prudence is closer to the High Priestess. Yet there are differences: the High Priestess embodies traditional wisdom and the experience of life, both of which inform her intuition. Prudence in the Etteilla cards, on the other hand, is young and inexperienced, even if she does, in the Etteilla II and III, have a book to consult. Looking at the card, I think you're supposed to think of all the teachings about Prudence. Look to the past and to the possibilities in the future (including snakes) for your present course. Investigate the facts, think it through, make sure your course aligns with your values. Know yourself (the mirror). and so on. It is a different card, even if the High Priestess is the closest fit. Some people also find Prudence elsewhere in the deck, such as the Hermit. And also the World. So instead of being absent from the traditional decks, maybe it's there in different ways in several cards. Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-7890247721671693782019-01-30T00:35:19.471-08:002019-01-30T00:35:19.471-08:00It is exactly the same card as the etteilla III ca...It is exactly the same card as the etteilla III card above, with lady, book, mirror and snake. So this would mean that the Etteilla Prudence card matches up with the tarot high priestess and not the hanged man...?? <br />Anne-Marie (The netherlands)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05099029331240484588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-89995159219752242152019-01-29T15:54:55.935-08:002019-01-29T15:54:55.935-08:00The Etteilla III Prudence card has on it a standin...The Etteilla III Prudence card has on it a standing young lady holding a book in her right hand and a hand mirror in her left. If that is what you have, it is correct. The book and hand-mirror are traditional attributes of Prudence. If it is something else, tell me what is there. Is she standing or sitting, does she have anything on her head, what does she hold?Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-77472106321782823782019-01-29T09:59:55.667-08:002019-01-29T09:59:55.667-08:00Hi Michael, thanks for sharing your knowledge on t...Hi Michael, thanks for sharing your knowledge on the etteilla tarot! I have found an image of the etteilla III prudence card with the title 'High Priestess' on it instead of 'Prudence'... is this a forgery? I can send it to you if you mail me? A-M@xs4all.nl<br />Anne-MarieAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05099029331240484588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-50328522472119062812015-07-30T04:34:43.394-07:002015-07-30T04:34:43.394-07:00Dear Michael, you might like to update the links t...Dear Michael, you might like to update the links to my Etteilla cards - I had to move them here -<br />https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/sumadas-treasure-box/collections/72157631580712992/<br />Regatds<br />Adam (Sumada)Sumadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16953224705725666814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-2139848681753411202015-07-30T04:34:12.181-07:002015-07-30T04:34:12.181-07:00Dear Michael, you might like to update the links t...Dear Michael, you might like to update the links to my Etteilla cards - I had to move them here -<br />https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/sumadas-treasure-box/collections/72157631580712992/<br />Regatds<br />Adam (Sumada)Sumadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16953224705725666814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-27306348373454522802015-07-22T01:42:48.860-07:002015-07-22T01:42:48.860-07:00Please see my rewritten earlier comment. It repeat...Please see my rewritten earlier comment. It repeats what you commented on but corrects one or two things. I myself have three Etteilla decks. One is the English-French 1969 "Grand Etteilla Egyptian Gypsies Tarot", put out by Grimaud. Another is the English-French "Grant Etteilla Egyptian Gypsies Tarot" put out later, probably after 2000, also Grimaud, The third is the "Tarot Egyptien Grand Jeu de Oracles des Dames, Methode d'Etteilla et du Livre de Thot", put out by Dusserre.<br /><br />As far as faithfulness to Etteilla, the 1969 Grimaud is the closest. The only thing not in Etteilla's deck, aside from the English translations, is the sun on card 1 (maybe one other thing, but I can't remember). <br /><br />The c. 2000 Grimaud has the same pictures, but has changed many of the keywords, I assume to fit the modern world. <br /><br />The Dusserre, in contrast, has changed the pictures but is quite faithful to Etteilla in its keywords (top and bottom). The words on the side are fairly faithful, too. The Dusserre booklet is well worth holding onto; it is a reprint, with translation, of parts of the c. 1840-1850 book that went with the "Grand Etteilla II". As an instruction book, it is more faithful to Etteilla and his immediate followers than just about anything else in print. But the "Grand Etteilla II" deck itself has not been put out for at least a hundred years, as far as I know.Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-76540219191274431612015-07-22T01:12:56.396-07:002015-07-22T01:12:56.396-07:00I certainly don't understand how these "r...I certainly don't understand how these "replies" go. I wanted to make a correction in my reply, and I ended up deleting it. I guess you can't edit them after they are posted.<br /><br />Anyway, what I said, or meant to say, was that Etteilla himself only did one deck, in 1789, 2 years before he died in 1791. the one that corresponds to most of the black and white Etteilla reproductions that I posted (they come from the deck owned by Thierry Depaulis and reproduced in the book "Wicked Pack of Cards"). The "Etteilla Thoth", seems to be the one first done in 1870, which I call "Grand Etteilla III", although I am not sure. Many of its images (I don't recall how many) come from the illuminated 15th century "Nuremberg Chronicle". The lady with a looking glass is a conventional medieval image of Prudence. What makes it an Etteilla deck are the words along the sides of the cards and the general themes of the images.Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-48551056969869062102015-07-22T00:49:21.969-07:002015-07-22T00:49:21.969-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348902731619941382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-36388687231634839492015-07-22T00:48:15.877-07:002015-07-22T00:48:15.877-07:00Thank you for confirming that there was only one g...Thank you for confirming that there was only one genuine Etteilla deck. It was very confusing to me because there are a number of decks bearing his name. The only copy I have is the Grand Etteilla Gypsy Egyptian .<br /><br />Thank you for your help. <br /><br />Marilyn Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348902731619941382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-26943381991607018942015-07-21T20:11:55.788-07:002015-07-21T20:11:55.788-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-28694075592591404042015-07-20T04:13:01.055-07:002015-07-20T04:13:01.055-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348902731619941382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-18403982028626972152015-07-20T04:13:00.136-07:002015-07-20T04:13:00.136-07:00Thank you Michael, for your detailed response.
A...Thank you Michael, for your detailed response. <br /><br />After I sent my original question I realized how I confused the Grand Etteilla Gypsy deck with the Etteilla Thoth deck. One associates Prudence with the Hanged Man and the other associates Prudence with the Lovers. So I apologize for my initial lack of understanding. I have a copy of both decks. <br /><br />Did Etteilla actually develop both of these decks? I am under the impression that he created the Grand Gypsy Tarot and then died that same year. How did the other varieties come to exist? (In his name)<br /><br />Thank you for your kindness in answering. Although I've been reading and studying for 39 years, learning about its evolution remains as fascinating to me as when I was a neophyte.<br /><br />Marilyn<br /><br /><br /><br />I can read about these matters all day long. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348902731619941382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-17059117890129022302015-07-20T04:12:44.612-07:002015-07-20T04:12:44.612-07:00Thank you Michael, for your detailed response.
A...Thank you Michael, for your detailed response. <br /><br />After I sent my original question I realized how I confused the Grand Etteilla Gypsy deck with the Etteilla Thoth deck. One associates Prudence with the Hanged Man and the other associates Prudence with the Lovers. So I apologize for my initial lack of understanding. I have a copy of both decks. <br /><br />Did Etteilla actually develop both of these decks? I am under the impression that he created the Grand Gypsy Tarot and then died that same year. How did the other varieties come to exist? (In his name)<br /><br />Thank you for your kindness in answering. Although I've been reading and studying for 39 years, learning about its evolution remains as fascinating to me as when I was a neophyte.<br /><br />Marilyn<br /><br /><br /><br />I can read about these matters all day long. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348902731619941382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-68016855864367723532015-07-20T03:12:59.139-07:002015-07-20T03:12:59.139-07:00Thanks for reading! The image on the Prudence car...Thanks for reading! The image on the Prudence card is a variation on one version of the Hanged Man, namely, that which appeared in Court de Gebelin's essay on the tarot in 1781 and which existed in several historical tarot decks at that time, such as the Vieville of c. 1650 Paris, de Hautot in c. 1720 Rouen, and the "Belgian" tarot after that. Etteilla replaces the rope with a snake and changes the gender. Giving it the name "Prudence" was also de Gebelin's idea. You can read de Gebelin at http://le-miroir-alchimique.blogspot.com/2012/03/court-de-gebelin-du-jeu-des-tarots.html, in French only. It is under "Planche V". <br /><br />Card 13 is indeed Etteilla's version of the Lovers. It resembles the Lovers card of the Vieville deck, etc., which you can view online at http://www.tarot-history.com/Jacques-Vieville/. <br /><br />I had not thought of there being a connection between the two cards, 12 and 13. I know that the first 12 cards constituted for Etteilla one group, I forget what he called it, but more noble, and #13 starts another, less noble. But there may well be such a connection as you suggest. Etteilla in the 4th Cahier, 1785, speaks bitterly about his marriage to his "Xanthippe" (Socrates' wife, whom he called ""the hardest to get along with of all the women there are." according to Xenophon). They were married in 1763 and separated in 1767. He lost "all his heritage", he wrote, to her and other family members, and contemplated suicide. But instead, the "hautes sciences" were born (biographical information from Wicked Pack of Cards, pp. 77-79).Michael S Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-59232614281405924092015-07-19T04:01:44.861-07:002015-07-19T04:01:44.861-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348902731619941382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-50528809894088714122015-07-19T04:01:43.784-07:002015-07-19T04:01:43.784-07:00Hi Michael :)
Thank you for this article.
Is th...Hi Michael :)<br /><br />Thank you for this article. <br /><br />Is the #12 Prudence card the equivalent of the more traditionally understood Lovers card, or is the #13 card, Marriage, the Etteilla equivalent of the Lovers? <br /><br />Or is there another altogether? <br /><br />I think it's interesting that these two cards are sequential. As though prudence and marriage is the advice or warning, for lovers. <br /><br /> Thank you<br /><br />MarilynAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348902731619941382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-86615744001812996722015-07-19T04:00:32.192-07:002015-07-19T04:00:32.192-07:00Hi Michael :)
Thank you for this article.
Is th...Hi Michael :)<br /><br />Thank you for this article. <br /><br />Is the #12 Prudence card the equivalent of the more traditionally understood Lovers card, or is the #13 card, Marriage, the Etteilla equivalent of the Lovers? <br /><br />Or is there another altogether? <br /><br />I think it's interesting that these two cards are sequential. As though prudence and marriage is the advice or warning, for lovers. <br /><br /> Thank you<br /><br />MarilynAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348902731619941382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-13384679366208674812014-02-10T18:01:29.023-08:002014-02-10T18:01:29.023-08:00Thanks, Crazy. It was a labor of love.Thanks, Crazy. It was a labor of love.Michael S. Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02287678765471062181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430091942545532601.post-77147754048628161222014-01-23T08:47:59.987-08:002014-01-23T08:47:59.987-08:00Thanks for this wonderful article. I've been l...Thanks for this wonderful article. I've been looking for anything on Etteilla but could hardly find. Someone has recommended me this website, I can't be more happy. :)CrazyLassihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18082230922705947261noreply@blogger.com